Feedback and the Shot Across the Bow

Great cast guys. I love the details in

Great cast guys. I love the details in this since it was only briefly covered at the conference. I just reviewed some manager-tools content (feedback specifically) with other managers at my office last week and this was one of the re-occurring questions about it possibly not working. This is perfect timing and I'll definitely pass it on for them to hear an elaborate response.

Thanks again!
Mike King

This seems like very good advice that

This seems like very good advice that will be very, very difficult to follow. It is not too difficult to distinguish between behavior and conclusions in the description of "When you..." from the feedback model, but to focus entirely on future behavior when the other person reacts will require massive willpower, determination, and patience.

US41- Not really. Since when have

US41-

Not really. Since when have you let your emotional status be ruled by others? That doesn't sound very Zen like. ;-)

This is where the word responsibility comes from - we're ABLE to choose our response. Choose effectiveness, not recrimination.

Mark

One of the best casts to date, if not

One of the best casts to date, if not the best, and that's saying something because there have been a bunch of excellent ones.

Great addition to the feedback casts.

Great addition to the feedback casts. I had the opportunity to use this just this morning and my direct had a deer in the head lights reaction. He had no idea what to think and has been stepping all over himself today trying to figure out what happened. My thanks to you both for bringing a refinement to my managerial education.

Congrats M & M, i have got to try this

Congrats M & M, i have got to try this with the next confrontation we have. Here in Africa (South Africa) it is customary for directs to look away from you when you're making a point, it is also customary for them to vehemently deny there was anything wrong with their behaviour. My only concern really is this: if the direct insists he/she did nothing wrong and I walk away albeit pleasantly without saying much more, has that direct learned his/her lesson?? Of course one can gauge that from the immediate behavior that follows and besides one can simply continue to revert to (documented) adjusting feedback - is that the fail-safe (with evil grin)?

Good Morning, when do you think the

Good Morning,

when do you think the trascript and slide will be available?

Thank you

vadim

Excellent cast. As good as the casts

Excellent cast. As good as the casts about Feed back and O3.

It made me realise of a counterproductive behavior I sometimes have. And I think it is a "D" and "I" caracteristic.

When I have a direct who desagrees on a feedback I gave him, my natural tendency is to defend my position and try to prove him I am right. I will come back with more arguements to make the other accept my point of view. Until the other says "Okay you are right" without really being convinced ...

... Completely counterproductive.

Thank you for pointing that ...

Absolutely outstanding

Absolutely outstanding cast!

Immediately useful, and completely obvious once you think it through (which, of course, I hadn't....)

--Rich

We'll have the slides up by Saturday

We'll have the slides up by Saturday ... sorry for the delay!

Mike

I'm not sure if this is the best

I'm not sure if this is the best location to request a Podcast theme, but would you two be able to shed some light on the Peter Principle ? http://money.howstuffworks.com/peter-principle.htm

Basically it's when people are promoted to a level just beyond their capabilities. I've seen this may times in my short Career in IT, but I can see why it happens. I'd love to hear your views / thoughts etc on this issue, and I’m sure others would be as well. If you have mentioned it in the past, can you point me to the correct Podcast? Many Thanks again.

While we generally agree with the theme

While we generally agree with the theme of the Peter Principle, we don't see ourselves doing a cast on it specifically. We're much more likely to make a suggestion about actions to take to avoid that happening to you. Just reviewing the Principle itself isn't actionable.

Mark

The point of feedback is to encourage

The point of feedback is to encourage effective behavior. We're not really interested in anyone "learning a lesson"...we just want them to change their behavior (this cast only addresses adjusting feedback).

Too many managers make these moments into them being right, or teaching a lesson, or setting someone straight.

Walk away...and keep an eye on future behaviors. If you're giving feedback like breathing, any one moment isn't any big deal.

Walk away. They KNOW.

Mark

Excellent cast. Have already had

Excellent cast. Have already had opportunity to use it and (of course) it works. Thank you.

Nigel- Thank YOU sir. That 'of

Nigel-

Thank YOU sir. That 'of course' means a lot to us.

Mark

This is an excellent podcast because of

This is an excellent podcast because of the wise approach it takes when the recipient of the feedback assumes a defensive posture. I'd like to share with you a few clever defensive postures people take and ask for any comments and FEEDBACK!

1) As soon as he/she hears the feedback, this fellow suddenly comes down with a sever case of amnesia: not recalling the behavior at all or denying he/she has ever done such a thing. If you're not careful, you'll find yourself being severely interrogated as to when's and how's of the behavior.

2) After having gone through this rigorous interrogation and his complete denial of the behavior in the name of understanding your feedback, he turns the tables on you by asking: "Now that you've given me a feedback, may I give YOU a feedback as well?" Then he claims that you've done such and such. Pretty soon you'll get a terrible feeling in your guts that your roles have been completely reversed because in your SEARCH FOR BEHAVIOR, you are now suffering from amnesia and you are denying having ever committed the behavior in question!

3) This last case happens especially when you give a peer feedback or when you give feedback to someone outside your organization.
This fellow comes up with a well-crafted statement that hits you in the heart :

"While I greatly appreciate receiving feedback from others on this issue, on these matters you and I have a disagreement. Bye!!"

And you happen to feel very strongly about that issue! What should you do? ....effectively? Marshaling others against him?

Malekz- Thanks for your kind note.

Malekz-

Thanks for your kind note. Glad you liked the cast.

So why aren't you just following it? "Marshall others against him?" Are you kidding?

And are you using the 4 step model on a peer? No wonder he doesn't like it.

Ignore the amnesia and walk away, and all this other stuff goes away.

Mark

Thanks for your response, especially

Thanks for your response, especially for reminding me to differentiate between 4-step and 2-step feedbacks.

I still have some difficulties with the 2-step model for peers or people outside my organization who simply are less responsive to feedback. They may even acknowledge the shortcoming, apologize for it profusely, and promise delivery by such and such date certain. But at the end of the day you, the result-oriented manager, won't get any result from them. As I recall, the degree of responsiveness is also considered a parameter of personality in some psychological tests. I think the feedback model needs to be intertwined with other techniques. Maybe with some motivational techniques?

By the way, this reminds me of the lack of transcripts for this show and many others and the ample peer feedback given and promises received. For example see Mike's response to VADIM above. No delivery yet.

Your most recent podcast on voice mails was a fantastic one as usual but with no transcripts either.

Regards,
MM

I loved the analogy. When you fire a

I loved the analogy.

When you fire a shot across the bow, no one is hurt, but if the other ship continues on the same course, they're going to get a cannonball in their lap.

You don't fire across the stern, because that makes them think they can just outrun you.

Brilliant!

If you said to a direct, "When you did X, it made Y happen," you're firing across the stern.

So the feedback model is "When you do X, Y happens" - future, not past.

Thanks!

I like the mindset - changing the

I like the mindset - changing the future, not punishing the past.

And I wondering about this hypothetical case:

They do A.
You give feedback about behaviour A - they deny it - you back away.
They do A again
You give feedback again about behaviour A - they deny it again - you back away.
They do A again
You give feedback again about behaviour A - they deny it again - you back away.

Now you see that they don't change the behaviour and you decide to give them systemic feedback.

But now you can't say that they failed to change because you yourself told them that you were wrong when addressing the issue, no?

"Boss, of cause A is bad, but I never did that. You said it yourself," he says and continues to do it knowing that he can get away with it.

What to do now?

Any one having issues downloading this

Any one having issues downloading this cast? I am only the first 15 seconds in the file that I download.

The issue is most likely a partially

The issue is most likely a partially complete download stuck in your browser cache. If you clear your browser cache and download the show again, the problem will most likely go away.

Hope that helps!

regards,
Mike

nogger, We could spend all day

nogger,

We could spend all day answering hypotheticals ... it's a rat hole we'd rather not go down. In our experience, the situation you describe doesn't happen. Let me know when it happens to you and we'll address. ;-)

Mike

Hi Mike! Fair enough. Color me

Hi Mike!

Fair enough. Color me "academia" :-)

Recently, I listened to a podcast where someone explained planning poker. You do it until you reach consensus. He also addressed the potential question of "what if we don't reach it" with "I have no answer because this never happened to me".

I guess people indeed want to do good.

Bye,
Martin

I'm a big fan of your podcasts and love

I'm a big fan of your podcasts and love that I can use them to make effective use of my commute time!

I like the immediate results of "If they say it's not true, agree", and recognize the effectiveness of the shot across the bow. However, I'm concerned that I can no longer cite this ineffective behavior in their review to justify their performance score. How do I reconcile this?

Thanks,
John

John, We believe you should be

John,

We believe you should be providing feedback ALL THE TIME. So what if she gets away with something once or twice ... she'll repeat the behavior soon enough, presenting you another opportunity to give feedback again. Certainly, if she continues to exhibit the behavior after repeatedly receiving feedback, it's then time for a different conversation - system feedback.

We'd also suggest that if you're worried about one piece of feedback and an upcoming review, you're not giving feedback nearly often enough.

Mike

The "shot across the bow" metaphor is

The "shot across the bow" metaphor is very powerful. Thinking about how I respond to my boss (she fired a shot just a few days before I listened to this), I see the fundamental truth - feedback is more powerful (and more useful) in its impact on the receiver than is easy to believe for the giver.

It does put pressure on the giver to be right, but using the behavior -> impact formula makes it safer. Moreover, if you give lots of feedback, you shouldn't have to worry too much about it.

One thing that strikes me is that negative (adjusting) feedback is much more impactful than postive feedback. Why do you think that is?

CAlangst- I would have said it was

CAlangst-

I would have said it was the other way round... so let's agree on what your definition of impactful is?

Mark

Hi Mark and Mike, I would like to

Hi Mark and Mike,

I would like to ask nogger's question for him again given that I have actually experienced it (not hypothetically). What would you suggest when a person repeatedly disagrees with the same feedback, despite you having data to support it and it coming from others besides you?

Given that nogger already asked the question (and very eloquently), could you take a look at his/her question on October 18th, 2007 at 2:44 pm and tell us what you would do?

P.S. I have been a devoted listener for years now and really do love your podcast. I sincerely appreciate everything you both do for this community. Thanks!

Thanks,
Mark.

Mark- Glad you asked your question,

Mark-

Glad you asked your question, and glad you're with us.

And no, I won't answer nogger's question.

The premise of nogger's question, however eloquent, is false - because he inaccurately applies systemic feedback in a hypothetical situation without ever applying the entire feedback model, something we've never suggested.

I can't answer your question either, because I don't know what happened.

Our focus on behavior is not a construct or a concept - it's how the world works.

Why don't you lay out what you did and what your direct did. Be specific about behaviors. What he did (or that he asserts he did not do but you assert he did), how you know that he did it, what you said - the words, and how and where you said them - and what he said and did in response: words, tone, etc. How many times did you do so, were the alleged behaviors the same every time or different, etc.

If your direct said why he disagreed, please share that as well. Tell us also what you do, and what he does - your industry, specialty, etc. Share what you mean by data as well.

Perhaps this seems the hard opposite of hypothetical, and I would agree with you. But when a bridge falls down, the folks asked to examine what happened actually look at the math the engineer used. They're not examining the math theory - they're looking at whether the equations were worked correctly. No, we're not as good as Euclidian geometry ;-), but hey, "hypothetically"...we could be.

Mark

I often give feedback and am

I often give feedback and am immediately met with pushback.
Example:
Me
Bob, I noticed that you often forget to check the DVD navigation on a TV. There are errors in the navigation that you would not notice using a mouse on a computer.

Bob
Well, that's your job, to check my work.

Me
My job is to check your work, but your job is to check your own work before you give it to me.

Bob
Whatever.

Me
Arghh

or alternatively

Bob
I don't have a DVD player at my desk

Me
I have one on my desk that I only use to check discs, you can use it at any time.

Bob
It would be easier if I could do it without getting up from my desk.

Me
Whatever!

See my frustration - the pushback in response to my feedback can be trivial, but indicates either insecurity or ambivalence.
What do others think?

Mike